Curse

Lanier · Feb 08, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As I have said in my first post in this thread - the best way to change the mesmer is to change the E in PvE. Otherwise all you can do is remove that which makes the guy special.

That is... a really good way of wording it. The problem is that if you give a mesmer more strait up damage, you are making it into a copy of the elementalist or the assassin. There are some classes that are meant for damage and there are some that are not. With ten different classes in the game, you cant have every class being a damaging class. In my opinion, the only way you can buff mesmers without them losing... well what makes them mesmers, is by buffing the environment. I mean, if you want a high dps class, there isnt any reason why you cant play a sin or a warrior.

Now I dont mind a few mesmer buffs to the underpowered skills, but I do not think they need to be changed from their original functionality. Energy denial skills should stay as energy denial skills, no matter how much energy denial may suck in PvE. Instead of removing e-denial, Anet should reward a mesmer for causing e-denial with more effective mind wrackish skills (causing damage from e-denial) or more skills that allow you to take an opponents energy and make it your own (stealing energy for your own energy management kind of like energy tap). This way, instead of doing direct damage and becoming a carbon copy the damage-oriented classes, mesmers can do damage by manipulating the energy of the opponents.

Anyway, I know that mesmers are about more than e-denial but i thought I would throw this idea out there anyway.

byteme! · Feb 09, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

4. has access to superb e-management options

No Mesmers have one of the worst emanagement available.

1)It's a non primary attribute (inspiration)

2)Because of the reason mentioned above Mesmers are often "forced" into a 3 way split with their attributes. Dom/Illusion (the focal point of your offense), Fast Casting (your primary), and Inspiration (e-management). Yes there are exceptions to this as we all know but if you have a look around that's the general template for your average Mesmer.

3)Requires skills slot(s)

Lanier · Feb 09, 2010, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

No Mesmers have one of the worst emanagement available.

1)It's a non primary attribute (inspiration)

2)Because of the reason mentioned above Mesmers are often "forced" into a 3 way split with their attributes. Dom/Illusion (the focal point of your offense), Fast Casting (your primary), and Inspiration (e-management). Yes there are exceptions to this as we all know but if you have a look around that's the general template for your average Mesmer.

3)Requires skills slot(s)

Whats the big deal about a 3-way split? Its not like you even need much investment in inspiration in order to get a good energy return from power drain or drain enchantment or auspicious. Usually, after ruining, I end up with 14 in either illusion or domination, 9-10 in fast casting, and 10-11 in inspiration. This is a perfectly reasonable attribute split.

Several of the mesmer e-management spells give significant energy returns (like the ones I mentioned above) and, once one becomes proficient at spotting interuptable opportunities or at finding enchantments to remove or even at simply switching to a high en set in order to cast that high-energy spell after an auspicious incantation, e-management on a mesmer becomes extremely easy. Some mesmer skills may need some buffing, but their e-management skills certainly do not. And if you really dont want to split into inspiration, there is always GoLE available.

Finally, yes mesmer energy management skills do require one or two skill slots but you have to remember that they fulfill other roles as well. Power drain isnt just an energy management skill, it is also an interupt. Therefore, it takes the place of one of your interupts. Likewise, drain enchantment removes enchantments. Therefore, whereas a curses necro would put rip enchantment in their build, a mesmer would just fill a slot with drain enchantment. It isnt using up any additional space in your skill bar as it is taking the place of an enchantment removal that you would have there anyway.

And finally... so what if you have to give a skill slot to an energy management skill? Elementalists have to do the same with their attunements and GoLE. Ritualist use up a skill slot for spirit siphon. Monks use up one for GoLE or selfless spirit. In fact, Necroes are the only casting class that generally do not use a slot on their skill bar for energy management, and many necroes even use Sols, thus taking up a slot on their bar. Im sorry but saying that a class' energy management is bad because it has to require a skill slot for their energy management skill is a stupid arguement.

ForgottenAccount · Feb 09, 2010, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

upier has already provided a few suggestions how mesmers (and rangers) could be more useful in PvE without changing one skill on page 1.

Without changing one skill != Less developer effort than changing one skill.

All things considered, PvE splits and skill changes probably have the least impact on the total playing population. At this stage in the game is it really realistic to hope for major alterations in the PvE environment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Whats the big deal about a 3-way split? Its not like you even need much investment in inspiration in order to get a good energy return from power drain or drain enchantment or auspicious. Usually, after ruining, I end up with 14 in either illusion or domination, 9-10 in fast casting, and 10-11 in inspiration. This is a perfectly reasonable attribute split.

...

Finally, yes mesmer energy management skills do require one or two skill slots but you have to remember that they fulfill other roles as well. Power drain isnt just an energy management skill, it is also an interupt. Therefore, it takes the place of one of your interupts. Likewise, drain enchantment removes enchantments. Therefore, whereas a curses necro would put rip enchantment in their build, a mesmer would just fill a slot with drain enchantment. It isnt using up any additional space in your skill bar as it is taking the place of an enchantment removal that you would have there anyway.

The point in complaining about the Mesmer's 3 way attribute split I think is that most other classes have self-supportive utility built right into the main attribute lines. If I want to run a Fire Elementalist I can take Fire Attunement and Glowing Gaze and both of those are Fire attribute skills.

With Mesmers, it seems the modus operandi was to take almost any unusual or energy management skill and drop it into Inspiration, which means Inspiration line is, for the most part, a liability to the Mesmer class. You've got [theoretically] fewer builds to choose from and the builds you do have are dependent on more attributes.

upier · Feb 09, 2010, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

No Mesmers have one of the worst emanagement available.

1)It's a non primary attribute (inspiration)

2)Because of the reason mentioned above Mesmers are often "forced" into a 3 way split with their attributes. Dom/Illusion (the focal point of your offense), Fast Casting (your primary), and Inspiration (e-management). Yes there are exceptions to this as we all know but if you have a look around that's the general template for your average Mesmer.

3)Requires skills slot(s)

If you are arguing on general templates - there are a lot of builds that demand a 3 way split. Heck, even Illusion and Domination provide e-management options.
If on the other hand you are arguing about PvE - then use 3 PvE only skills for damage (which require NO attribute points allocation) and go a simple FC/Inspiration split.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForgottenAccount

Without changing one skill != Less developer effort than changing one skill.

All things considered, PvE splits and skill changes probably have the least impact on the total playing population. At this stage in the game is it really realistic to hope for major alterations in the PvE environment?

You know what is the problem of mesmers in PvE?
The fact that they aren't as obscenely overpowered as everything else and not that they are weak. Which means that they ABSOLUTELY do not need buffs and could actually stand a few more nerfs, because as it stands now - objectively looking they are still overpowered for PvE.
Which means that this whole thread is just a waste or time.

Or we could actually look at this thread as a signal that something are not working in PvE (rather than a demand for class specific buffs) and work on those things to make the game more enjoyable as a whole.

drkn · Feb 09, 2010, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

objectively looking they are still overpowered for PvE.

i do know i'm not objective as i play my mesmer from the very beginning and i have my own point of view. how can you say what's objective and what's not?
don't play the rhetorical god, please.

as pointed in the last post - it's not about the damage. it's about:
1) continuous nerfing without buffing
2) having loads of pve useless skills (copies, shitty effects)
3) not being as useful as any other class

as for 3, it doesn't matter how they should be useful. it's not about the damage, let me repeat it.
they are unique in the way of shutting down and disruption - so let's give them something similar to maelstrom linked to fast casting - an interrupt over time, with no exhaustion, workable (not spammable) recharge and cost to handle. it doesn't need to deal damage, it may drain energy and interrupt for a longer period.
rework some direct interrupts (in pve of course) into hex spells, with the effect similar to 'for 10 seconds, the next skill/spell/whatever target foe uses fails'. if correctly tweaked with recharges and cost, it may even have an additional effect of shutdown or causing dazed condition (to be somewhat comparable to BHA rangers).
buff e-denial for pve - change recharge time and cost of panic as a first step. then add an additional effect to every e-denial skill - it doesn't have to be damage - a few things that come to my mind are: 'heal the caster and adjacent allies for x', 'caster gets +x energy regeneration for x time', 'caster gets x energy', 'other random x attribute skill recharges instantly', 'recharges random signet', 'target and his party members get +x energy'.
third, mesmers need any role in the party. again - it doesn't have to be damage. if they could be the best at supporting the party with energy, they could replace P/N batteries - and that would be completely fine. if their mantras gained party wide effects, they could somewhat protect and help with energy. again - it doesn't matter what role they gain, just make it useful in the party of living people.

you can compare mesmers to paragons - they have loads of shitty skills and they can run only imbagon to be effective in a party. the real - and huge - difference is that an imbagon is a blessing in every hm party. a mesmer is usually a burden if he decides to be mesmery.

you argue all the time that mesmers were not created to deal damage; that they're unique and they were designed for something else. i agree with you, let me quote something with additional comments in [] brackets.

Quote:

Mesmers are masters of illusion and control, subverting the enemy’s Energy for their own use, and that of their allies [o rly? as pointed above - a party-wide energy management would be awesome, too bad that the manuscripts lie]. Combined with any other profession, their skills provide excellent support, turning enemies’ powers against them and changing the very fabric of reality to hinder foes and help allies.[it's probably about empathy and alike skills - it's not an excellent support and it doesn't really help allies] Mesmers have the ability to cast spells quickly, which can make all the difference in the heat of battle.[and become redundant since maxing asuran title and using mindbender] Their powers of domination allow them to take control of enemy skills and Energy.[would be cool if they could actually do better with those skills and energy taken] Their unique illusionary talents can slow or even halt enemy movement and skill casting, or cause imaginary illnesses that drain Health and Energy from foes while healing and energizing allies.[again - energizing allies? wtf?] While Mesmers are not known for brute strength, their ability to confuse, distract, and drain the enemy’s resources more than compensates.

upier · Feb 09, 2010, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

i do know i'm not objective as i play my mesmer from the very beginning and i have my own point of view. how can you say what's objective and what's not?
don't play the rhetorical god, please.

Mesmer players are able to win the game.
If the mesmer was an underpowered class this would be impossible to do.
And considering the ease mesmer players are able to win the game - that just goes to show how much potential there still is.

But yes, not measuring up to the other guys is a problem.
The issue is:
1. current PvE is a simple damage-fest
2. 10 classes and 8 party slots.

So by buffing the mesmers you just shift the issue onto someone else. What you want to do is change PvE in a way that allows the options that are already in the game to actually be viable.
And of course - you nerf the insane options that dominate the current game.

Of course, if we are lucky - this is what GW2 will be like.

Shriketalon · Feb 09, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The fact that they aren't as obscenely overpowered as everything else and not that they are weak. Which means that they ABSOLUTELY do not need buffs and could actually stand a few more nerfs, because as it stands now - objectively looking they are still overpowered for PvE.

Power is relative.

If one class is weaker than all the rest, that means it is, relatively speaking, underpowered.

The assumption that PvE's relative difficulty level is static is false, it changes depending on how skills, monster AI, and bars/distribution varies. Change one thing, and the difficulty of PvE shifts slightly. Change several things, the shift is greater in magnitude. Etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Mesmer players are able to win the game.

Beating this game isn't difficult, and it certainly isn't the bar by which relative power is set. It is far better to look at how easily certain setups defeat certain things, how reliably and how swiftly. If one setup can beat a high level area in half the time of another, suffer less probability of defeat, and do so with less personal skill, it is probably more powerful.

The state of a class, its over/underpowered nature, is determined by its fellow classes, not by PvE alone. Thus, if the mesmer is less useful than any other class, it is underpowered.

Tenebrae · Feb 09, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You know what is the problem of mesmers in PvE?
The fact that they aren't as obscenely overpowered as everything else and not that they are weak. Which means that they ABSOLUTELY do not need buffs and could actually stand a few more nerfs, because as it stands now - objectively looking they are still overpowered for PvE.
Which means that this whole thread is just a waste or time.

Or we could actually look at this thread as a signal that something are not working in PvE (rather than a demand for class specific buffs) and work on those things to make the game more enjoyable as a whole.

LoL no , just no. Stand a few nerfs ? soz but , are you on crack ? . Seriously WHAT does have a PvE mesmer right now that DESERVES a nerf ?. Just say something so we can have some fun.
You should actually look at this thread as a "hey Anet , stop throwing random BS nerfs to PvE mesmers , we dont deserve it , thanks" scream because thats what they are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Mesmer players are able to win the game.

Like any other class , thanks for pointing the obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If the mesmer was an underpowered class this would be impossible to do.

False.
Underpowered =\= Being unable to complete the game.
For the rest , dont take the word "buff" as a "i want my pve mesmer to WTFPWN any lvl 26+ mob with 2 skills" because no one is asking that. Some skills need shorter recharges on pve and effects/requirements rework and thats a fact. The thing is that Anet is not even translating Nicholas text in other languages so its rather pointless to ask for logical skill changes but at least we can ask them to stop those nonsense nerfs to Mesmers. Hope its clear for you .

ForgottenAccount · Feb 09, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Mesmer players are able to win the game.
If the mesmer was an underpowered class this would be impossible to do.
And considering the ease mesmer players are able to win the game - that just goes to show how much potential there still is.

If you think this is a valid metric to determine whether or not "X" is overpowered. Well, that's fine for your opinion but I'll be looking for an ignore button.

Mass-market RPG games like Guild Wars are not designed to be pass/fail. You can fail, yes, but you are intended to win. As has been stated before, looking at other metrics like speed, reliability, player skill required are all more useful than looking at whether completion is possible or not.

Your attitude seems to be "If ANet just changes everything else in the game Mesmers will be fine." Which is possibly true. But ANet is not going to change everything else in the game, so it's pointless to discuss that as a scenario.

upier · Feb 09, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Power is relative.

If one class is weaker than all the rest, that means it is, relatively speaking, underpowered.

The assumption that PvE's relative difficulty level is static is false, it changes depending on how skills, monster AI, and bars/distribution varies. Change one thing, and the difficulty of PvE shifts slightly. Change several things, the shift is greater in magnitude. Etc.

Beating this game isn't difficult, and it certainly isn't the bar by which relative power is set. It is far better to look at how easily certain setups defeat certain things, how reliably and how swiftly. If one setup can beat a high level area in half the time of another, suffer less probability of defeat, and do so with less personal skill, it is probably more powerful.

The state of a class, its over/underpowered nature, is determined by its fellow classes, not by PvE alone. Thus, if the mesmer is less useful than any other class, it is underpowered.

PvE monsters are static.
You have 10 classes.
You have 8 party slots.
Nothing is stopping you from using the same class multiple times.

By default - you will ALWAYS have at least 2 classes that aren't as good as the rest of them. But in PvE, due to the stupidity of the foes and the obscenity that are PvE skills, that just means that mesmers are currently slightly less mental than everything else.
Yet they are still mental. And the issue is that this mental state of the game is what is considered to be normal so people are screaming for things to be buffed to this mental level.

The game currently needs massive nerfs.
Starting with players, continuing with monsters.
And then, re-evaluate what needs to be potentially buffed. Probably - not much.

Voodoo Rage · Feb 09, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

I'm not a huge mesmer player so excuse me if I'm totally talking out of my ass here...

Mesmer monsters are already really annoying so I'd hate to give them much of anything to make them MORE annoying. I think the key here is that Fast Casting just isn't worthwhile enough to make a primary Mesmer THE choice for using mesmer spells. I would treat fast casting like divine factor on monks. Since monks are healers, their primary attribute makes them better healers. If Mesmers are to be interruption specialists, I would buff fast casting to also include an energy bonus for ANY interrupted action (in PvE). I'm not sure how significantly this would effect monsters since it seems there energy pool isn't as significant as the player's. This would give mesmers a significant source of energy that is dependent on them doing what they are designed to do. I also think that Cry of Pain needs to have it's recharge or SOMETHING linked to Fast Casting. Right now ANY profession can use it freely without a problem.

Shriketalon · Feb 09, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

PvE monsters are static.

Also false.

Change a skill, and you change every monster that uses that skill. Change a core profession, and you change every monster of that profession. PvE is linked directly to the ten classes, and their relative power and ability translates directly into the game.

Is AI also a factor? Certainly. Is the composition of mobs directly linked to their performance? Definitely. But PvE is far from static, as every adjustment changes everything in the game that utilizes that aspect.

Which is why I probably sound like a broken record advocating the wide-range buffing. If skills are increased in power, but still below the current meta, then a lot of monsters will gain a benefit without overpowering the current builds. Targeted nerfs can fix any problems that result, but the wide range will allow class aspects to actually do the job they were meant to do, ie allow mesmers to buff their team like the lore says they should.

upier · Feb 09, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Also false.

Change a skill, and you change every monster that uses that skill. Change a core profession, and you change every monster of that profession. PvE is linked directly to the ten classes, and their relative power and ability translates directly into the game.

Is AI also a factor? Certainly. Is the composition of mobs directly linked to their performance? Definitely. But PvE is far from static, as every adjustment changes everything in the game that utilizes that aspect.

Which is why I probably sound like a broken record advocating the wide-range buffing. If skills are increased in power, but still below the current meta, then a lot of monsters will gain a benefit without overpowering the current builds. Targeted nerfs can fix any problems that result, but the wide range will allow class aspects to actually do the job they were meant to do, ie allow mesmers to buff their team like the lore says they should.

Static in terms of once you figure out what works best, that things works best.
And there is no reason whatsoever to run anything else.

And the problem of the current game which followed the "let's buff everything" idea is that we have reached a level where pure, simple damage is completely sufficient to win the game.
Shutdown on it's own will never win the game. It will always need damage.
Damage is already able to win it on it's own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

LoL no , just no. Stand a few nerfs ? soz but , are you on crack ? . Seriously WHAT does have a PvE mesmer right now that DESERVES a nerf ?. Just say something so we can have some fun.
You should actually look at this thread as a "hey Anet , stop throwing random BS nerfs to PvE mesmers , we dont deserve it , thanks" scream because thats what they are doing.

AP and it's Disco-calling build needs to die.
Caster induced daze needs to die.

Oh look!
That's everything a mesmer is using in PvE!

maxxfury · Feb 09, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

we have reached a level where pure, simple damage is completely sufficient to win the game.
Shutdown on it's own will never win the game. It will always need damage.
Damage is already able to win it on it's own.

AP and it's Disco-calling build needs to die.

1: spot on dude!
2: revert disco's cast time to 2 seconds

3: id miss AP <3,and not for disco

Reverend Dr · Feb 09, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Guru Community: Waaah! that other class is a little bit better than my class! Anet do something!

Option 1: Nerf the overpowered class

Option 1 response: Waaah! Anet why do you always NERF everything!?! That is all you ever do is nerf nerf nerf!

Option 2: Buff the underpowered class

Option 2 response: Waaah! why did you buff that class and not mine! Now my class is no good compared to the one you buffed for no reason!

Note: nowhere in this dialog is any understanding of game mechanics or the root causes of the problem required.

Tenebrae · Feb 09, 2010, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

AP and it's Disco-calling build needs to die.
Caster induced daze needs to die.

Congratulations , those are NON mesmer skills so its relevance in PvE Mesmer nerfs is 0. If you nerf them , you nerf them for all. Some of its users will be hurt , others wont , but thats not the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Oh look!
That's everything a mesmer is using in PvE!

Congratulations again , you are clueless. Once again ,that is a non mesmer build . I didnt think i had to say it with every word but i guess ill have to , what MESMER skill DESERVES a nerf in PvE version ? .... that was what i was asking .

PS: In your opinion Mesmers are not underpowered but you say the ONLY have 1 build ..... anyone can tell you dont give a crap about mesmers so the real question is ..... wth are you doing here ?

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 09, 2010, 06:57 PM // 18:57

I have never had a problem with my mesmer in hardmode but I mostly H/H so I don't receive too much mesmer hate from the masses. I agree that many (most?) mesmer skills are PvP oriented and not that effective in PvE, but the mesmer PvE-only skills are great. So great that other professions take mesmer as secondary just to use them. (A/Me, E/Me, etc.)

Also I'd like to remind everyone that Mesmers can cast any spell as well as anyone else, even if it is in some other profession's primary attribute. This opens up enormous possibilities.

What am I talking about?
Signet of Illusion, Arcane Mimicry, Auspicious Incantation, go. Be a nuker or hex spammer or healer or whatever you feel like doing.

upier · Feb 09, 2010, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Congratulations , those are NON mesmer skills so its relevance in PvE Mesmer nerfs is 0. If you nerf them , you nerf them for all. Some of its users will be hurt , others wont , but thats not the point.

Congratulations again , you are clueless. Once again ,that is a non mesmer build . I didnt think i had to say it with every word but i guess ill have to , what MESMER skill DESERVES a nerf in PvE version ? .... that was what i was asking .

AP enables you to AEcho EVAS.
Caster induced daze is FD.
These would be among the few (if not the only) viable mesmer PvE options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

PS: In your opinion Mesmers are not underpowered but you say the ONLY have 1 build ..... anyone can tell you dont give a crap about mesmers so the real question is ..... wth are you doing here ?

As I have said, mesmer are relatively (compared to other classes) underpowered in PvE.
The problem is, as previously noted, there will always be classed that are underpowered in PvE. So if you were to "fix" the mesmer issue, all it would do it turn it into the ... let's say ... ranger issue.
We need to treat the issue differently.

reaper with no name · Feb 09, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Unless, of course, the mesmer only gets buffed up to the level of the ranger, and not beyond.